The coming war with Iran

[UncleRock]

Those who forget history are destined to...
Article (www.baltimorechronicle.com/2006/092106PARRY.html)
Rock

[Dick]

I kept looking for somethang related to the K1200LT forum, butt musta missed it. ;)

[early1]

I kept looking for somethang related to the K1200LT forum, butt musta missed it. ;)
Maybe the Mods can move it to ChitChat right UNDER the Hiroshima Post.

[swamprat]

Being part of the Beltway bandits, there is so much political feces out there, that I for one come to this forum to read about a passion and feel like a part of a community, a get away from BS that flows abundantly from the DC metro area. Our bikes are heavy enough lets not weigh this site down with rants and raves (unless its about HD's or Soccer Moms in Excursions).

Just my 2 cents.

[KMC1]

I hear what you're saying, and in a way I agree with it. However, I wonder how many feel like I do, in that there are few people who we can speak with about serious issues? I end up around hundreds of people every week, but actual discussions about issues that matter? Maybe a dozen or so a year, tops. Seems everyone just wants to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this country doesn't need us ALL to be active participants.
It's everywhere now, you can't even ask someone who they may vote for in the upcomming elections without people acting as though you just got physically aggressive with them. And the really sad part is, most people don't even know who's running, nevermind who they will vote for.
If we don't discuss issues like these, then we'll continue to be in situations like the one we're in now with Iraq and Afghanistan. We'll end up with our country in shambles, which in all honesty, it feels like the path we're currently on.
I for one, would like a new forum added, reserved for the politically active / minded on the board to share info with.

[KMC1]

I hear what you're saying, and in a way I agree with it. However, I wonder how many feel like I do, in that there are few people who we can speak with about serious issues? I end up around hundreds of people every week, but actual discussions about issues that matter? Maybe a dozen or so a year, tops. Seems everyone just wants to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this country doesn't need us ALL to be active participants.
It's everywhere now, you can't even ask someone who they may vote for in the upcomming elections without people acting as though you just got physically aggressive with them. And the really sad part is, most people don't even know who's running, nevermind who they will vote for.
If we don't discuss issues like these, then we'll continue to be in situations like the one we're in now with Isreal, Iraq and Afghanistan. We'll end up with our country in shambles, which in all honesty, feels like the path we're currently on.
I for one, would like a new forum added, reserved for the politically active / minded on the board to share info with.

[rixchard]

The reason a lot of us are hesitant to talk about is because we are too tired of hearing the words like patriot, traitor, liberal, etc.. bandied about. Instead of discussing the issues, personalities end up being the focus of the discussion. Request for substantiation of facts or rational for positions are met with silence or insults. It is, in my opinon, the triumph of believing over knowing

[meese]

Richard's right. There have been suggestions about having a political forum to segregate these types of discussions, but in the end it was decided against. It would be too easy for folks to go way off, and you quickly end up with a battle of personalities that goes far beyond any particular issue. Just look how quickly the Hiroshima thread moved away from any pretense of rational discussion and turned abusive. The best we've been able to do is to keep these discussions relegated to Chit Chat, where people still have some sense of self control (it's still primarily a bike-related site, after all). But even then certain threads occasionally have to be closed when things go too far.

I'm sure there are other places on the web where you could go for such discussions, but this site tends to stay away from it for the most part. We've all been there, and no one really wants to repeat the mess that came out around the last major election.

[UncleRock]

I kept looking for somethang related to the K1200LT forum, butt musta missed it. ;)
I posted it here because I ride a K1200LT.
I guess thats wrong, because I have been told I would be booted off the site, for mis posting?? WOW :eek:
Rock

[mconlogue]

I posted it here because I ride a K1200LT.
I guess thats wrong, because I have been told I would be booted off the site, for mis posting?? WOW :eek:
Rock

huh?? Heck, i guess they dont even want to give you one mistake then (or maybe you are over your limit?? :histerica )

Heck, I posted the Hiroshima link because I thought it was a great link, and it referred to an actual documentary on a REAL event in our history. At least I havent had any negative feedback from it in PM yet. It is sometimes hard to take the reply posts seriously, because you just know there is no way that some of the personal attacks and insults would ever be said face to face.

[kdbell]

Thanks for the post Rock.
Very thought provoking read and you can bet I will be following up on his supporting documentation.

Kenn

[George_S]

To no one in particular....
I really don't want to know my fellow forum member's political leanings. It will do nothing but create some tension and resentment. I've seen it happen on another internet forum where it almost was the end of the forum. I just wanna ride and talk about riding and wrenching. Politics will just muck it all up. I could never understand someone who felt the need to discuss politics with people who, for the most part, they'll never meet, and hiding behind a keyboard. Have some guts and talk your views with people face-to-face in your non-internet day-to-day life, better yet- get involved on your local level and go door-to-door for the party of your choice.

I just realized the last sentence above has got to be a record holder in the hyphenization category... :eek:

[JCabranes]

I don't mind getting into political conversations because I am generally up to date on the issues from multiple sources some of whom share my political views and others that don't. My 2 cents is that is probably isn't the place for it. First, because this site is about motorcycles, not politics or world events. If any of you have checked the MOA site lately you will see that people have been at each others throats over the article about riding in Iran. Any vestige of rational discourse was gone within 2 or 3 replies and basically degenerated into name calling. Second, the issues generally discussed in those types of posts deal in many cases with our core beliefs. My experience is that people are generally not objective when defending their core beliefs and talk past each other accomplishing nothing.

Having said all of that I will throw gas onto the fire by stating publicly that political negotiation without a military option is just blowing hot air. Von Clausewitz, a 19th Century German statesman (see I worked Germany into a German Motorcycle Forum :) ), once said that war is an extension of politics. I believe he is right. If it is in our political interests that the Iranians not have a nuke then we damn well better do whatever we need to do to prevent them from getting one. My two cents... flame away.

[UncleRock]

I could never understand someone who felt the need to discuss politics with people who, for the most part, they'll never meet, and hiding behind a keyboard. Have some guts and talk your views with people face-to-face in your non-internet day-to-day life, better yet- get involved on your local level and go door-to-door for the party of your choice.

You have assumed that I do nothing in local politics. :histerica You are incorrect. I am a founding member of Citizens For Freedom PAC, and we have taken back our township, every office, just as you describe. All 3 Supervisor seats, the Secretary/Treasurer, the Tax Collector and the Auditors are all members of CFF (not all from same party)
Going out and talking to our local people, and asking them to talk with people they know. :cool:
The internet is about reaching a larger body of people, the same as TV or radio with out the large expense.
Like the first post said those that forget the past...are destined to repeat it!
Rock

[OKUIII]

I believe you hit the nail right on the head. I just do not understand why everybody gets upset over the rights of the Iranian or Iraqui (Muslims) killing their own people and call it a sane act. Everything we do is called murder and we get taken to task for it by them, but no one is questioning willing to act. One day we are going to see Wahsington, New York or Los Angeles go up in a big ball of orange and red flame........Then there will be argument on which political party was responsible for not protecting us. We should not and can not allow a group of irresponsible idiots to be running around the world with nukes. There is too much to be lost. We appreciate life too much.

[George_S]

You have assumed that I do nothing in local politics. :histerica You are incorrect. I am a founding member of Citizens For Freedom PAC, and we have taken back our township, every office, just as you describe. All 3 Supervisor seats, the Secretary/Treasurer, the Tax Collector and the Auditors are all members of CFF (not all from same party)
Going out and talking to our local people, and asking them to talk with people they know. :cool:
The internet is about reaching a larger body of people, the same as TV or radio with out the large expense.
Like the first post said those that forget the past...are destined to repeat it!
Rock

I did not assume a thing. Go read the first line again. :p

[BUGKILLER]

I don't think any of us should shy away from pertinent topics either religious or political as long as they are posted in the right forum. If you are on the right ,the left or fall somewhere in the middle,intelligent conversation is never a bad thing.
As for the article here is my two cents....
I was sitting with a loaded backpack and M-16 on a tarmac in Frankfurt Germany when Reagan was sworn in. The Iranian hostage crisis was a year old and ready to boil over. 15 minutes after Reagan was sworn in the hostages got loaded onto a plane and headed to safety. I don't really care if a back door negotiation and a boat load of weapons changed hands. We didn't go to war and I am hear to talk about it. With the Good Guy Today, Bad guy Tomorrow routine in the middle east it is impossible to place a bet on who is not going to bomb us next. All I know is if my kids had been ready to deploy to Iraq and I was given the option to trade weapons for Sadam getting ousted the choice would be easy. I can't even imagine the pressure that any of our presidents face on a day to day basis or the info they have that forces them to choose the choices that they make. I also understand that a certain amount of stink is associated with the process of getting elected and that stink has to be paid back one way or the other. Speculating on the actions of one president trying to cover the bad actions of his father is ridiculous. I believe that they are all patriots in their own way and need the support of the nation and certainly the respect that the office holds. It's bigger than the person sitting in it.
Thanks for the post Rock.

[MOSLEYDS]

I enjoy hearing the opinions of real people in different parts of the country.
And, being on a like minded site gives a sense of having something in common so you know a little of where prople are coming from.

[MOSLEYDS]

I was in Saudi Arabia just before the hostages were released. I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I remember it looked to me that we were just about ready to unload on Iran. Shortly after they were released, we packed up and went home.

[jwd98056]

While Rock may have posted this tread in the K1200LT forum initially, and he has already been severly tongue lashed for that transgression :o, it had already been moved to the Chit Chat forum by the time you responded. I will generally avoid participating in political discussions because I feel that, at least for this topic, most people only care about their own opinions anyway. However, I fail to see the basis for your statement.

Why would a political thread be any less appropriate than Dog the Bounty Hunter, the space shuttle, LEO KIAs, airplane museums, Michael Jordan, road kill, financial scam notices, music, a kid doing a backflip in a wheelchair or a Monday Night Football beer list, just to name a few threads from the past few weeks?

Probably a third or more of the Chit Chat threads have nothing to do with motorcycles. The forum guidelines state that Chit Chat is the forum for generalized chatter. And I would certainly place political topics deeply in the chatter category. To clarify what I mean by chatter, I am an electrical engineer and chatter is the annoying sound an oscillating relay makes :histerica. If political topics were considered inappropriate by the moderators then they would have deleted this thread rather than move it to Chit Chat.

So my $0.01 worth is: If political discussions are disturbing to anyone they should not participate in them or just avoid the Chit Chat forum all together, where all kinds of wild, crazy, annoying, thought provoking and wonderful stuff gets posted then bandied about :D.

My 2 cents is that is probably isn't the place for it. First, because this site is about motorcycles, not politics or world events.

[KMC1]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061009/lindorff

[JCabranes]

While Rock may have posted this tread in the K1200LT forum initially, and he has already been severly tongue lashed for that transgression :o, it had already been moved to the Chit Chat forum by the time you responded. I will generally avoid participating in political discussions because I feel that, at least for this topic, most people only care about their own opinions anyway. However, I fail to see the basis for your statement.

Why would a political thread be any less appropriate than Dog the Bounty Hunter, the space shuttle, LEO KIAs, airplane museums, Michael Jordan, road kill, financial scam notices, music, a kid doing a backflip in a wheelchair or a Monday Night Football beer list, just to name a few threads from the past few weeks?

Probably a third or more of the Chit Chat threads have nothing to do with motorcycles. The forum guidelines state that Chit Chat is the forum for generalized chatter. And I would certainly place political topics deeply in the chatter category. To clarify what I mean by chatter, I am an electrical engineer and chatter is the annoying sound an oscillating relay makes :histerica. If political topics were considered inappropriate by the moderators then they would have deleted this thread rather than move it to Chit Chat.

So my $0.01 worth is: If political discussions are disturbing to anyone they should not participate in them or just avoid the Chit Chat forum all together, where all kinds of wild, crazy, annoying, thought provoking and wonderful stuff gets posted then bandied about :D.

I'm not sure if I should take the your post as a shot at me or not so I'll let it go. But I do stand by the post I made. Politics... being in it or talking about them... is dangerous business these days. People have become very thin skinned on that subject and when challenged it seems that more often than not respond in aggressive, close minded ways which IMO tends to detract from the community feeling that we all look for when coming to this site (again I refer to the MOA thread regarding the September ON issue). That's why I don't think these types of conversations belong on this site. BTW, I agree that if you don't want to participate in one of these conversations avoid the forum or don't post... I haven't done either so what does that tell you.

[George_S]

I agree with John's above comment.

To the poster who said
(paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to go back and quote it properly)..."If you don't like political comments, then avoid the chit chat section completely" I could say- If you want to talk politics, then go post on a political forum, not a motorcycle forum!

[petepeterson]

:rolleyes: Just what part of "OFF TOPIC" don't you guys understand?????

Talking politics is what this forum IS for... Some of the people around here are mature enough to have a conversation with out a bunch of high drama in it...
And Rocks mention of war with Iran seems to be a timely topic.... Couple of you need to get up, slowly move away from the keyboard and go for a ride............ ;) .........Pete

[jwd98056]

I could say- If you want to talk politics, then go post on a political forum, not a motorcycle forum!
You could say it but it would just be a fart in the windstorm :eek:. I could say this was a K1200LT forum when I first started lurking so take all this other model and brand stuff elsewhere (big cheesy fart) :). I could say take all those back flipping wheelchair kids some place else (incredibly insensitive extra smelly jerk fart) :D.

I didn't make a political comment in my post and I never have posted a political statement on this site. My comments concerned the posting policies of this site and John's, and now your, misunderstanding of them. There is no prohibition against political topics in the Chit Chat forum. John and your preconceived notions of what a motorcycle forum should be are just that, your opinion. This isn't just a forum it's a community of friends and friends don't just talk about motorcycles. If the two of you been around a little longer you might have learned that on your own.

Thankfully what is or is not appropriate on this forum is the responsibility of the owners and moderators of this forum. While I don't enjoy the content of everything that gets posted here I don't presume to tell people what they can post here, the moderators will make that determination. So the bottom line is that John, your and my opinions of what people should post here are irrelevant. People are going to post just about anything here, that is why the Chit Chat and Humor forums were created, so get over it.

Oh by the way, don't bother trying to tell me what to do, only my wife has that privilege :histerica.

[KMC1]

If we're not able to "chat" about politics on the "chit-chat" forum, where else is it considered to be inappropriate?
In other words, doesn't the fact that in our own society we have censored ourselves across the entire societal spectrum, cause concern and maybe even some fear?
In our current climate, it's not appropriate to talk about immigration, crime, education, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence ETC. because you're a "racist" or a "bigot" or a "misogynist" etc.
It's not appropriate to talk about people walking into cafes around the world and detonating a bomb on their belt, people kidnapping people and then cutting their heads off, because you're "intolerant" and committing "blasphemy".
And you KNOW you're not going to talk about Israel, at all.

So my question then is if not on Chit-Chat, and not at work, and not out having a good time, and not in the mainstream media, and not in government.... then WHERE? Are we all willing to stay silent on so many important issues and take no action? Do we only discuss contentious issues in our homes, with our loved ones?

[George_S]

Hey Jim,

By having a bit of an attitude, accusing me of something I didn't do, and lecturing me as if your opinion mattered more than mine did, you proved my point that political discussions can't be intelligently debated in an adult manner by some people, and IMO, shouldn't be included here.

All I did was give an opinion as many others did. I never "told" anyone what to do which you contend I did. And your comment about me not being here that long is also insulting. Just how long is your rule in regard to when someone is entitled to post their opinion? Just because someone is only here a month, two months, that makes them inferior to you in your view? It was an opinion, it wasn't right or wrong. Why you chose to take me to task for it I dunno. Get over yourself.

[tmgs]

To no one in particular....
I really don't want to know my fellow forum member's political leanings. It will do nothing but create some tension and resentment. I've seen it happen on another internet forum where it almost was the end of the forum. I just wanna ride and talk about riding and wrenching. Politics will just muck it all up. I could never understand someone who felt the need to discuss politics with people who, for the most part, they'll never meet, and hiding behind a keyboard. Have some guts and talk your views with people face-to-face in your non-internet day-to-day life, better yet- get involved on your local level and go door-to-door for the party of your choice.

I just realized the last sentence above has got to be a record holder in the hyphenization category... :eek:

all politics is - one party against the other. period.

Nothing more nothing less, it divides friends family and fellow riders.

Tom

[tmgs]

I hear what you're saying, and in a way I agree with it. However, I wonder how many feel like I do, in that there are few people who we can speak with about serious issues? I end up around hundreds of people every week, but actual discussions about issues that matter? Maybe a dozen or so a year, tops. Seems everyone just wants to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this country doesn't need us ALL to be active participants.


no, your wrong. people do not discuss politics because it leads to battle, period.

no one can discuss it it logically, it only turns into - you against them. No one will ever see the others side, if it differs from theirs. the only way two people in this country can have a logical calm informative discussion is if they are either both republicans or democrats, heck ya can't even have a conversation with another if your a libertarian.

No one will ever see your point of view it's only theirs that matters, it is a good reason to stay off politics

friggen democrats startin this shit in here again!


Tom <sfsf>http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tmgs]

I for one, would like a new forum added, reserved for the politically active / minded on the board to share info with.


there is one already, it is a newsgroup
hee search groups.google.com for any usenet political disscsion you may ever want to dream about

THAT is the place for POLITICS besides what is directly related to motorcycling IMNSHO

[eljeffe]

another thread done.