No Foot Down = Ticket?

[hschisler]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...

[katnapinn]

No sir it's a law here in Texas also.I have been told by a sherif friend of mine that if the cop wants to be picky they can ticket you if you not put both feet down :v: But they usealy don't get that picky thankfully :eek:

[hschisler]

No sir it's a law here in Texas also...Interesting. I'll have to ask a local LEO some time.

[grifscoots]

Hey Howard, pretty much universal (at least in the US), just depends on the LEO.

[UncleRock]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...
I'm not sure Howard as far as law reads.
I have lost a slow ride contest to an LEO in Miami, the course was 50' long. I finished in 2minutes 32 seconds he finished in 2.58. :mad: Neither of us put our foot down (instant disqualification) or left our lane.
I would say there were times when we were dead stopped.
Rock

[tmgs]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...


i think it was TN or NC (up by the gap someplace), someone and I can't remember who 9not someone off this list someone I know elsewhere) got a ticket for not stoping because he did not have BOTH feet on the ground.

or some crap like that

but you know how stories go.....

Tom

[LTsaddledance]

I've practiced that come to a feet-up stop trick all the time and rarely accomplish it. Useful practice for a slow race though. I remember from some list conversation somewhere that motor LEO's are taught the trick but I don't know if that's true or not. Motorman?

I can see why you would get a ticket from an officers point of view. You can only halt for a second and not put a foot down. As far as he's concerned, that's not enough of a stop to safely look for oncoming traffic.

But getting a ticket for not putting BOTH feet down is wrong.

[tmgs]

I've practiced that come to a feet-up stop trick all the time and rarely accomplish it. Useful practice for a slow race though. I remember from some list conversation somewhere that motor LEO's are taught the trick but I don't know if that's true or not. Motorman?

I can see why you would get a ticket from an officers point of view. You can only halt for a second and not put a foot down. As far as he's concerned, that's not enough of a stop to safely look for oncoming traffic.

But getting a ticket for not putting BOTH feet down is wrong.

it jsut takes practice, I use to run alot of slow races on the HD, they are much easier to hold at a stand still with those big flywheels turning round and round!

[Lonewuff]

Being a recently retired Texas LEO I pulled out the trusty traffic section and looked it up. There is no distinction for a stop between a cage and a motorcycle, simply states "Must come to a complete stop" and I know I can come to a complete stop without pulling my feet off the pegs, as majority of riders can, so like some have said, the LEO would have some discretion here, but by the book there is nothing stated about feet.

[ChiefMn]

The cops were freely handing out tickets for not putting both feet down in Sturgis in the '80s.Supposedly was a South Dakota law, but I don't know of anyone who challenged it.I think it was mostly a sneaky fund raiser back when riding a motorcyle was socially unacceptable.Probably wouldn't get away with it today with all the lawyers at Sturgis.

[NOGILLS2]

Well I dont know but I have been told!


I ride with a couple of leo's and I dont always put down my feet at a stop,
have not had any coment on it. In fact all they usualy say man that bike is fast.
But, Who knows?

[grifscoots]

Well I dont know but I have been told!


I ride with a couple of leo's and I dont always put down my feet at a stop,
have not had any coment on it. In fact all they usualy say man that bike is fast.
But, Who knows?

I likes riding with LEO's!:D

[MikeyO]

I was a motorcop. I wrote a ticket to a rider that slowed to about 5 - 10mph before riding through a stop sign. When we went to court I testified that he did not stop, was at an estimated speed of 5 - 10 mph, wheels and tires turning, and did not place a foot down at the stop. I realize that not everyone has to put a foot down to come to a complete stop, but this guy did have to. He was inexperienced and didn't even have a M/C endorsement. I added this to my testimony knowing that MOST people have to put a foot down when they come to a COMPLETE stop. The rider stated to the magistrate that he came to a complete stop and didn't have to put any feet down to come to a complete stop. The magistrate wanted proof and made the rider attempt to stop with no feet down in the parking lot of the courthouse. Couldn't be done by the rider on this day, or any other I suspect. I testified "no feet down " as only one of the indications that he did not stop; not the ONLY reason I thought that he did not stop.

I can't speak for anybody else, LEO or otherwise, but a stop, is a stop. I only care that you STOPPED, not how many, if any, feet are down. There are MANY riders that can stop with both feet on the pegs (or boards) for a very long time. I don't care if they stop with both feet up; as long as they stop.

[grifscoots]

There are MANY riders that can stop with both feet on the pegs (or boards) for a very long time. I don't care if they stop with both feet up; as long as they stop.

Kewl. I've personally heard friends tales of getting tickets for not putting at least one foot down. I reckon the next time I stop with a cop behind me I'll give it a whirl and see what happens:D Of course, I'll get the youngster in his John Wayne phase and he'll not only ticket me, but arrest me for reckless riding.:rotf:

Oh wait, I don't have a bike anymore:mad: C'mon October, c'mon GT!!!

But, I do think I have the experience, here's a shot of my speedo a few 100 shy of our very last ride together before I said, "buh-bye", to her:
http://www.bmwlt.com/gallery/files/1/8/5/speedoshotsmall.jpg

[mwnahas]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...

Yup that is law in Ohio. I don't always put my foot down.
Though never got a ticket for not doing it.
Just lucky I guess or they really don't care as long as you slow down enough so it looks like you stop, a little extra break at the end to make the bike snap at the end helps. I used to be able to completly stop all the time without putting the foot down on a much lighter bike. In theory you're supposed to stop long enought to say "one mississpppi" :)

[petevandyke]

You won't find a single state that statutorily defines stop as anything more than complete cessation of forward motion, any talk of "getting a ticket for not putting a foot down" or better yet "both feet down" is begging you to say "I'll bet you a steak dinner you can't come up with a copy of the ticket."

I taught cops to be motor officers for 6 1/2 years, had the privilege of running a program with 15 of the best police riders as instructors, including Dick Rothermel, a regular contributor on these forums. I will never hold a candle to his skills, but I can hold what we call a "balanced stop" (throttle open, keeping the rpms at about 1,200 to 1,500, clutch in the "friction zone," rear brake feathered to counter--head up and looking downrange about 100 feet for balance and frame of reference) for an easy 5 seconds without warming up--not moving an inch, both feet on the pegs.

One exercise we used in training is called the "bump and run" where you ride up to a cone, bringing your front tire a few inches from the cone, do the above technique for as long as you can, then when the bike leans, you steer/countersteer around the cone. On a Harley Roadking, it's a little easier than on an RT or an LT, but with practice, it's easy to do, and I get a personal "kick" out of doing it at stopsign intersections (my daughter likes to count how long I can hold the stop and tells me via helmet intercom).

In police motorcycle "rodeos," a couple hotshots have upped the idle on their HD road kings to about 1,400 rpm and deflated tire pressure by 15 lbs, enabling them to pull of the stunning trick of coming to a balanced stop, using clutch modulation and rear brake to balance the bike against the throttle that is upped by the increased idle, then taking their right hand off the bar, removing a cigarrette with their right hand, lighting it, replacing the lighter, and riding away, all the time with their feet on the floor boards.

My personal record for a balanced stop on a Road King was 9.5 seconds--stopwatch timed by my wife, rolling eyes and all, haven't tried on an LT yet.

So...if I ever got a ticket for the alleged offense of "not putting a foot down," I'd bring in a video of me holding a balanced stop for five seconds and "educate" the judge and traffic cop, even though I was one.

Pete

[LTsaddledance]

I taught cops to be motor officers for 6 1/2 years, had the privilege of running a program with 15 of the best police riders as instructors, including Dick Rothermel, a regular contributor on these forums. I will never hold a candle to his skills, but I can hold what we call a "balanced stop" (throttle open, keeping the rpms at about 1,200 to 1,500, clutch in the "friction zone," rear brake feathered to counter--head up and looking downrange about 100 feet for balance and frame of reference) for an easy 5 seconds without warming up--not moving an inch, both feet on the pegs.

Excellent! Thanks for explaining the trick Pete. Time for practice.

In police motorcycle "rodeos," a couple hotshots have upped the idle on their HD road kings to about 1,400 rpm and deflated tire pressure by 15 lbs, enabling them to pull of the stunning trick of coming to a balanced stop, using clutch modulation and rear brake to balance the bike against the throttle that is upped by the increased idle, then taking their right hand off the bar, removing a cigarrette with their right hand, lighting it, replacing the lighter, and riding away, all the time with their feet on the floor boards.

Now that I'd love to see.

[hschisler]

OK, I think I've heard from several experts and a couple of REAL experts. Thanks for that. An interesting discussion.

I, personally, cannot do what some of you describe (i.e., come to a true stop, balance w/no feet down, and continue on). I always put at least 1 foot down (left first, always); the few times I don't put a foot down... it was a rolling stop. I'm doing less and less of those, and more true stops for safety's sake. I find I don't get a good look left and right without coming to a true stop because I'm concerned about falling at that slow speed.

[Lonewuff]

Howard,

Ride your own ride and do what you have to do.

Also remember, you can talk yourself into a ticket easier than out of one, which could be the case for some who have received citations for it.

[bowlesj]

When I got my 2 wheeler license many moons ago in Illinois, they even called the no foot down stop a "cop stop".

Never have had any problems.

[petevandyke]

Howard,

Practice "dragging" the rear brake and riding as SLOWLY, under power, as you can until you can every once in a while (with rear brake only, NOT front) pause completely as you practice it, and within an hour or two you'll be "cop-stopping" like a pro.

One practical application of the technique is when you find yourself on a road surface that isn't pristine, or on the rare occassion when you are wearing footwear that isn't typical riding gear...i.e. "dress shoes" which could cause an issue if you had to put a foot down and slipped...you can keep your feet clean and look cool at the same time.



Pete

[meese]

It's all about balance and control, and knowing your bike very well. A truly skilled rider can do a no-foot-down stop without thinking about it. Or a lock-to-lock u-turn, for that matter.

Yes, the LT's size, weight, and geometry can make these tasks a bit more difficult, but it was never meant to be a beginner's bike. You wouldn't learn to drive in a Greyhound bus or a dual-trailer 18-wheeler either (though it could be done if you're so inclined).

If you're not comfortable doing any of these maneuvers, then read all the riding technique books, take some advanced riding courses, and practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature.

[tmgs]

Oh wait, I don't have a bike anymore:


yup some folks jus think motorcycling is a hobby and sell them off every now and then and find something else to do........

(ya see I'm still riding while waiting for me new steed!) <big evil grin>


But, I do think I have the experience, here's a shot of my speedo a few 100 shy of our very last ride together before I said, "buh-bye", to her:
http://www.bmwlt.com/gallery/files/1/8/5/speedoshotsmall.jpg

well I see you have to have something to remember the "day" with!

I can't believe you only have that amount of miles to remember her with though


so hows it feel to be in a cage? or are you just staying at home these days?


Tom

<runnin n duckin>

[MikeyO]

Howard,

Ride your own ride and do what you have to do.

Also remember, you can talk yourself into a ticket easier than out of one, which could be the case for some who have received citations for it.


AMEN, BROTHER!!!!

[motorman587]

An other view from a motor cop. Stop signs, turning on a red light etc......... What we call in Florida is a California stop, not coming to a complete stop just rolling through the stop sign stop light. We all know nobody comes to a "complete" stop, so what do you do. Most cops I work with allows this. As long as the speed that the vehicle approaches the traffic control devise changes and is around 5 mph, your good in my books. You do not have to put feet down in my neck of the woods.

Remember that laws are different and each city, town, county and highway officer will enforce them different.

I truly agree with you can talk your way into one faster then you can out of one especially with an attitude.

[grifscoots]

yup some folks jus think motorcycling is a hobby and sell them off every now and then and find something else to do........

I hear quilting is very exciting and rewarding, too.

I can't believe you only have that amount of miles to remember her with though
I'm a slacker along with the malcontent thang.

so hows it feel to be in a cage?
It sucks and has added angst to the wait. The ideal thang woulda been to wait till the GT was here, but when fishing, you set the hook when the nibble occurs. I still have my Kawasaki Mule. It's not a bike, but does have the word Kawasaki in it.

or are you just staying at home these days?
I usually spend my days sitting in a dark room trembling.

[hschisler]

An other view from a motor cop. Stop signs, turning on a red light etc......... What we call in Florida is a California stop, not coming to a complete stop just rolling through the stop sign stop light. We all know nobody comes to a "complete" stop, so what do you do. Most cops I work with allows this. As long as the speed that the vehicle approaches the traffic control devise changes and is around 5 mph, your good in my books. You do not have to put feet down in my neck of the woods.

Remember that laws are different and each city, town, county and highway officer will enforce them different.

I truly agree with you can talk your way into one faster then you can out of one especially with an attitude.Thanks.

On the bike, I find myself stopping 99.99% of the time with 1 or both feet down. The only time I don't come to a true, complete stop is on some of the very rural roads I travel near my home where you can see a mile in either direction. That might happen 2 or 3 times/week. In the car I do a lot more "5 mph" stops (AKA rolling stops). For me the difference is the balance issue, especially two-up -- I can do a more controlled stop and turn while riding the bike by coming to a complete stop. Takes more time, but (for me) it's safer and smoother for my passenger.

[hschisler]

...I usually spend my days sitting in a dark room trembling.Why not go buy a cheapie used bike in the interim? Might be enough to satisfy that two-wheel wanderlust...

[grifscoots]

Hey Howard, pretty much universal (at least in the US), just depends on the LEO.
Man, after hearing our LEO's chime in, I retract this statement.

Now, how do y'all feel about stopping at red lights:p

[Dick]

Man, after hearing our LEO's chime in, I retract this statement.

Now, how do y'all feel about stopping at red lights:p
Only part I hate is having to leave the casa alwayz dressed for the camera!! :cool: :p

[zippy_gg]

I learned to ride, and stop, in France where the "1 foot down or else" law applies to bicycles as well as motorcycles.
I am not sure if all LEOs in California enforce that law as well, but they sure damn do in Los Angeles where pretty much everything you do is a source of revenues.

[jdhargrave]

If you are taking the driving test for your MC endorsement here in Maryland and put both feet down at stop you are penalized. Our handbook says to keep the right foot on the brake at stop.

[GeneralMilliron]

These laws must have been authored by MC haters! One foot down or else!! I guess I don't understand. When did we give the Government this kind of power?

What ever happened to the "Spirit of the law" or "innocent until proven guilty". If the sign says STOP, and all forward motion relative to the earth (relative to space we are never stopped!) is instantaneously stopped, then you are stopped (Newton and Einstein would agree). Any rider worth his salt can execute a complete stop on level pavement 80% of the time without losing his balance enough to have to put one foot down!

So with the "one foot down law", you can cruise up to a stop, dragging one toe and roll through? Or do they have a minimum criteria for how big your feet are and what style soles are on your boots?

I would love to see the look on a Judge's face when some physics student that gets ticketed for failure to put a foot down eats some courtroom lunch...

The intent of the Stop sign is to PREVENT accidents. It called "Traffic Control", not mind control! Fight back. Judges are much more open to "common sense" than you might imagine!

I commit myself daily to not putting any feet down. In fact I commute about 20 miles in city traffic and judge the "success" of the commute by the number of times I HAD to put feet down (the fewer the better!)... This can be a little challenging on a K12LT (Center of gravity is high compared to most bikes).

[LTsaddledance]

Any rider worth his salt can execute a complete stop on level pavement 80% of the time without losing his balance enough to have to put one foot down!

I can easily say that I don't stop 80% of the time "feet up", mainly because I don't try it much. It's just something I don't really practice other than maybe for a slow race. But with 27 years and a few hundred thousand miles on street bikes, I think I consider myself "worth my salt" anyway.

Not that I ain't willin to learn a new skill mind you. The "feet up" stop trick is one I've already said I'd like to master, but on reflection, I'm not really sure how much I'd use it on the street. It's not a skill that makes me a safer/better rider. Learning to do wheelies is cool but not safe. Learning how NOT to come to a full stop with time and concentration to look for traffic movement, ain't safe either. Like a wheelie it shows skill and is cool, but it's not safe road riding.


JMHO

[REWDOC]

I hear quilting is very exciting and rewarding, too.

Grif,

Ive been told by a very reliable source that motorcycle riding is addictive. So ya better watch out for them there signs of withdrawal. :eek: They usually start in 3-4 days.;)

[grifscoots]

Grif,

Ive been told by a very reliable source that motorcycle riding is addictive. So ya better watch out for them there signs of withdrawal. :eek: They usually start in 3-4 days.;)

OH, I had the Jones the second I signed the title over. It was mentioned to just buy a beater till the GT gets here. I got to thinking how good Sandar the mag has been about all this, how she hasn't blinked an eye when a box a day shows up with farkles for a bike I don't have and what her reaction would be if I rode up on a "new" motorcycle. I think I would need a Surgeon General muy pronto like.

[tkramer]

When I got my 2 wheeler license many moons ago in Illinois, they even called the no foot down stop a "cop stop".

Never have had any problems.

Being a bicycle racer in my youth, I learned the technique as a "track stop". On a road bike with a ratcheted, free-wheeling rear sprocket, you basically do the same thing as motorbike: Keep controlled torque on the rear wheel while modulating the brakes. You don't have the benefit of a flywheel, however. So, you need to cock the front wheel about 30 deg and cantilever your body over on the side of the bike the wheel is pointed. On a track racing bicycle, there are no brakes and the rear sprocket is fixed. You then have to control torque at the rear wheel for both foreward and reverse. (In competition you are dsqualified for rolling in reverse).

A track stop was/(is?) often done at stale red traffic signals because disengaging and re-entering the old pedals and toe-clips was such a PITA. Nowadays they gots them click-in-out strapless pedals so track stops are more about showing off.

[deputy5211]

Confirming what my fellow LEOs said earlier, in Texas there is no statutory requirement to put one's foot (or feet) down when stopping, nor is there a statutory amount of time to remain stopped. The only requirement is cessation of forward motion, and not proceeding until it is safe to do so.

If the wheels did not stop turning, the bike was still moving forward. It really can be that simple. Clearly there are those who can stop without putting a foot down. I can do it, although not for more than a few seconds.

The stories of folks being ticketed for not putting one foot (or both feet) down fits well with the stories of those who got a ticket for being in an intersection when the light turned red. As PeteVanDyke put it, it's a good time to ask to see a copy of the citation if you want to call BS on the teller. That said, urban myths can lead to good conversation and fun.

Simplifying and summarizing the Texas Transportation Code, light meanings are generally as follows:

Green: Permission to enter the intersection is granted.
Yellow: Permission to enter the intersection is about to be terminated.
Red: No permission to enter the intersection.

It's not whether you are in the intersection on red, it is whether you enter on red.

There are other vehicle/driver/citation urban myths and misunderstandings, but we could go on for days about them :)

[jayz9705]

Just to be a part of this thread, I'd like to ask if anyone has ever watched an Observed Trials rider discuss strategy for a section with his/her coach/trainer??

These people never put a foot down, standing stock still, pointing and gesturing with either hand, for whatever time it takes! They don't seem to care if the engine is running or not, either!

For anyone to say that someone with this type of skill NEEDS to put a foot down, is rediculous! I think most experienced street riders are capable of a complete standstill for 2-3 seconds, but it certainly is possible for someone to do it for whatever time span they desire.

Seems I remember the Motorcycle Shows did a 'competition' about this several years ago. A winner in NYC's show stood still for something around 30 minutes, IIRC.

[cfell]

Texas.. "officers" have told me they look to see you "roll back" then move forward.. or have both feet down and no movement of bike for a "second or so"...

Reminds me of the guy in Louisiana who did a "California" stop at a "STOP" sign. The officer observing the "infraction" executed a "traffic stop" on the California licensed vehicle.

Officer approaced vehicle.. asked driver.. "Did you see that STOP sign back there?"
Califorinia driver... "Yes, I slowed down"
Officer.. "Sir, that was a STOP sign, now a SLOW DOWN sign.."
California driver.. "I looked both directions and no one was coming .. and I did SLOW DOWN..
Repeat last 2 statement several times....

California driver.. "I really don't see the problem here, OFFICER.. I don't see the difference. Can you explain it to me?"

Officer... "Yes, Sir, I can help you with that." Officer reaches into the vehicle, pulls driver through window and begins to apply "educational remidiation" about the Californian's head and shoulders... then carefully enunciates the following:

"ok, SIR, you tell me, should I SLOW DOWN or STOP?"

[ADulay]

I've never been given a ticket (or handed one out when I did that stuff) for "failure to stop" at a stop sign even when there was an officer behind me. As with about 90% of BMW riders, we can come to a complete stop and move on without too much trouble.

Should an officer give me a ticket for something this simple, I'm sure a short demonstration of a complete stop with your feet up would prove to any judge, jury or local copper that it is a normal thing.

A stop is a stop. Don't need to have the feet down as far as I can tell.

As to my state of Florida, I really don't know what it says, but I'll be checking it out next week when I get back home for sure.

AD

[grifscoots]

Reckon stopping without putting a foot down purdy much confirms the sobriety thang?

[meese]

Reckon stopping without putting a foot down purdy much confirms the sobriety thang?Not if you're doing the Macarena in an elf suit at the time. :rotf:

[jayjacobson]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...
Howard, there is no such requirement in CA. If you are talented enough to make a complete stop without putting your foot (feet) down, more power to you!

[CajunBass]

I don't have to worry about this. If I tried a no foot down stop, it would take me several seconds, maybe even a few minutes, and two men and a small boy to pick up the LT so I could get back on it. :D

Now with the Majesty, I could do it.

"A man has got to know his limitations."

[jayjacobson]

The cops were freely handing out tickets for not putting both feet down in Sturgis in the '80s.Supposedly was a South Dakota law, but I don't know of anyone who challenged it.I think it was mostly a sneaky fund raiser back when riding a motorcyle was socially unacceptable.Probably wouldn't get away with it today with all the lawyers at Sturgis.
Talk about chicken shit!

I see no reason for a cite like that......even to the H-D boys.

[jayjacobson]

An other view from a motor cop. Stop signs, turning on a red light etc......... What we call in Florida is a California stop, not coming to a complete stop just rolling through the stop sign stop light. We all know nobody comes to a "complete" stop, so what do you do. Most cops I work with allows this. As long as the speed that the vehicle approaches the traffic control devise changes and is around 5 mph, your good in my books. You do not have to put feet down in my neck of the woods.

Remember that laws are different and each city, town, county and highway officer will enforce them different.

I truly agree with you can talk your way into one faster then you can out of one especially with an attitude.
Yup, our "stops" seem to be famous throughout the nation.

I've described the "California stop" or "California roll" in court as a rolling through a stop sign at 3-5 MPH. And NO, I don't cite for it!

[hschisler]

...I've described the "California stop" or "California roll" in court as a rolling through a stop sign at 3-5 MPH. And NO, I don't cite for it!I'm curious: why not?

[deputy5211]

Howard,

Have you ever gone fishing? Have you ever caught ALL of the fish? You can't cite every violation, and that is why LEOs are given discretionary leeway in their enforcement activities. I think if you ask most officers, each will have their pet peeves among violations. Mine were unrestrained children, no insurance, and of course, DUI. I know others who got chafed by expired tags and inspections, and others who looked for the "California Roll."

While occasionally there may be cause to cite for not completely stopping, such as at a high accident rate intersection, a warning often goes a long way towards securing compliance.

If you take the view that citations are used to obtain compliance with the law by changing inappropriate behavior, and not just as a revenue source for the jurisdiction, then it follows that warnings can also be a deterrent to future violations.

Just my $0.02.

[hschisler]

Howard,

Have you ever gone fishing? Have you ever caught ALL of the fish? You can't cite every violation, and that is why LEOs are given discretionary leeway in their enforcement activities. I think if you ask most officers, each will have their pet peeves among violations. Mine were unrestrained children, no insurance, and of course, DUI. I know others who got chafed by expired tags and inspections, and others who looked for the "California Roll."..Got it. Now I understand.

Curiosity resolved!

[deputy5211]

Cool, because I'm from the government, and I'm here to help. :histerica

[jayjacobson]

I'm curious: why not?
Greetings Howard:

Because, if you waste your time with a California roll, you'll miss the driver that never even saw the stop sign--much less tried to stop!

Yes, it's that nuts in SO CA!

[jayjacobson]

Cool, because I'm from the government, and I'm here to help. :histerica
Oh my!....

[Steve_R]

Cool, because I'm from the government, and I'm here to help. :histerica

Sounds just like an Asst. Chief of Police, don't he, of Dallas no less. :rotf:

[deputy5211]

In this job, like in most, one needs not take oneself too seriously if one expects to survive the day with some semblance of sanity still intact. :)

(then you go home to your kids and lose the little bit that's left, loving every moment of it, mostly)

[Steve_R]

Hey Tony,

Thanks for taking the dig as it was intended. :thumb: I don't live in Dallas, but I appreciate the job that you guys in blue do.

Wishing you and yours have a very merry and happy, happy.

[deputy5211]

Thank you, Steve, you are very kind.

A Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

[BLKBRD]

As a former LEO I know in most states the law says that you must come to a complete and total stop at a stop sign. When stopping your vehicle it should slightly dip forward and then rock back and come to the neutral position, throwing in a few seconds for checking cross traffic and on coming traffic your vehicle should be stopped for approx 3 seconds or even a little longer. To do this most riders I know have to put a foot down. Also if the LEO sees your spokes moving even with your foot down your not stopped.

[deputy5211]

As a former LEO I know in most states the law says that you must come to a complete and total stop at a stop sign. When stopping your vehicle it should slightly dip forward and then rock back and come to the neutral position, throwing in a few seconds for checking cross traffic and on coming traffic your vehicle should be stopped for approx 3 seconds or even a little longer. To do this most riders I know have to put a foot down. Also if the LEO sees your spokes moving even with your foot down your not stopped.

Complete stop and not proceed until safe to do so. Agreed. Beyond that, I find myself tempted to make the call, but instead, I'll just state the following.

Dip forward and rock back? That is not in any statute I have ever seen. I can do this without stopping, as I am reasonably certain most others can do this as well. At the end of the day, the true indicator of a stop is the cessation of forward motion. Generally, if the wheels stop turning, you're stopped.

A vehicle should be stopped for approximately three seconds? What if there is little or no cross traffic and you can determine in less than a second or two that it is safe to proceed? Should you still wait three seconds before going so you don't get a ticket? What if? What it? It is the totality of the circumstances that often determine what "should" be done.

"If the LEO sees your spokes moving even with your [sic] foot down your [sic] not stopped." If the spokes are moving, you're not stopped, whether or not a LEO sees it.

I am not questioning your experience, but I disagree with the dispensing of the so-called popular beliefs and/or well-intentioned myths to the public. IMHO, the facts do not support the advice given, and that could lead some folks astray, despite all good intentions.

JMTCW

[brianbeemer]

If you are taking the driving test for your MC endorsement here in Maryland and put both feet down at stop you are penalized. Our handbook says to keep the right foot on the brake at stop.
When I took the advanced training in the UK I was taught to keep my foot on the brake when stopped so that traffic behind always see the stop light. If the light goes off some drivers have been known to assume it's then OK for them to move forward... :mad: I was told the largest numbers of accidents involving motorcyclists in the UK (not fatalities) was being rear-ended after a stop...

Of course if you're not thinking far enough ahead to ensure you're in first gear when you come to a stop you then get the 'despatch rider shuffle' = right foot down, left foot up and shake it up and down, left foot down, right foot up, left foot up proceed... Personally, I always ensure I'm showing a stop-light when stopped, either by foot or hand.

SWMBO is really good at sitting still at low speeds by now and we can crawl along nicely in slow traffic when necessary even on a fully loaded bike, although in Europe we're usually lane splitting with all the other bikers... That brings me to another advanced training point - keep moving at all times, even if it's at a crawl; that way you're always ready to ride off quickly and get away from potential trouble, particularly the truck approaching too fast from behind. An added problem in the UK is the number of foreign trucks with huge blind spots alongside the cab as you pass them - you need a fast bike and open eyes to be safe these days.

[motorman587]

Put it to rest.

[Redleg]

Four years ago, I was ticketed for not putting a foot down; however, I was at a dead stop (momentarily). I took it to court and luckily, the judge was a MC rider and threw it out. He stated that he could fully stop without putting his foot down so he assumed I could also. (It was in Utah). Nowdays, I put a foot down just to prevent having to go back to court and fight.

[Gruivis]

I think I saw this horse move - so I'll hit it one more time...

Let's say you arrive at a four way stop just slightly ahead of the other car. You come to a feet-on-pegs stop. If you take a few more seconds to put your foot down the car will take that hesitation to mean that they should go first. Now you've got a potentially bad situation.

[McRuss]

There are other vehicle/driver/citation urban myths and misunderstandings, but we could go on for days about them :)

And go on we do........

I wasn't cited for it but when I was hit by a left turning vehicle, the sheriff's lieutenant (important fact) who 'investigated' listed me as the at fault vehicle on the accident report. When I was well enought to question him, he said it was because I passed two vehicles in violation of the law. When I asked for the cite, he said "I wont argue it with you" and hung up. Suppose it was because there is no cite for passing multiple vehicles? But my insurance co bought his version and paid for the offending vehicles damages (as well as paying off my '05 LT) and promptly raised my rates. Notice that it was a Sheriff's Lieutenant who investigated. I have known lots of admin officers of departments and most of them haven't investigated an accident since they were promoted to Sgt. His diagram of a serious injury accident was pathetic and he didn't take a single photo. I started my career with the Colo Highway Patrol and one of our academy classes was on photography! Any way, I have a hard spot in my heart for that Lt......

[jayjacobson]

As a former LEO I know in most states the law says that you must come to a complete and total stop at a stop sign....your vehicle should be stopped for approx 3 seconds or even a little longer....
WOW! Three seconds in SO KA will get you ran over (DRT), eulogised and buried.

[jayjacobson]

Four years ago, I was ticketed for not putting a foot down; however, I was at a dead stop (momentarily). I took it to court and luckily, the judge was a MC rider and threw it out. He stated that he could fully stop without putting his foot down so he assumed I could also. (It was in Utah). Nowdays, I put a foot down just to prevent having to go back to court and fight.
What a CHICKEN SHIT ticket! WEAK!

[yechave]

I just happened to surf into this thread going through the archives, which brought back memories of the very first test for my license in 1974. The State Police testing officer failed me for not putting both feet down at a stop. Now, he also dropped all of his papers, twice, before testing me that day. I had assumed he failed me out of embarrassment and frustration.

I pretty much have since made a habit of keeping both feet up a great deal of the time, and was very comfortable coming to a stop doing so. Granted, most of this type of stopping is not done in high traffic areas.

We just went through the PA MC safety course a month ago, the consensus there was one foot down, the other on the rear brake when necessary.

So, by Law, you don't need to wear a helmet, but you need to use two feet to safely come to a complete stop on a bike.

As a matter of fact, I am unable to touch with both feet at a stop, under certain situations, high/low side road conditions. On even surfaces, I am more than flat footed on the LT.

[lfclark]

Being a retired Michigan State Trooper and having written thousands of tickets over the years I would say to any police officer who writes you a ticket for being on a motorcycle and not "making a complete stop". Thats a "chickenshit ticket" to write a person who makes a conscious effort to come to a corner, look both ways and pull out safely.
Also being a motor officer instructor for 8 years we taught all our officers to come to a "complete stop" and not put a foot down. It's easy once you know what to do.
Be Safe
Leo Clark
Grand Rapids Michigan

[motorman587]

Being a retired Michigan State Trooper and having written thousands of tickets over the years I would say to any police officer who writes you a ticket for being on a motorcycle and not "making a complete stop". Thats a "chickenshit ticket" to write a person who makes a conscious effort to come to a corner, look both ways and pull out safely.
Also being a motor officer instructor for 8 years we taught all our officers to come to a "complete stop" and not put a foot down. It's easy once you know what to do.
Be Safe
Leo Clark
Grand Rapids Michigan

I second the above. I am not retired yet, but agree. Just because a car does not come to a complete stop does not mean the driver checked to make sure it was clear. I use this rule of thumb. As long as the driver/rider changed his speed, slowed, prior to stop, that was ok with me. We called those the california stops.

I have never been any good at the slow ride at the rodeos. I think it is good balance a hell a lot of practice. Cool to watch. I do not have the tricks for that one. I have tried to lower the air in the tires put that did not help. The best I have done a slow ride was on Honda CBR929. Of course it was not a rodeo but a one of these cycle events. The motorcycle was my wife. This was a couple of years ago.

[dglenn1]

I'm kinda surprised at what I'm reading here. Putting one's foot down is a debateable criteria for a stop, but then letting folks slide on stopping or not and calling it a "chickenshit ticket" if they someone made sure the intersection was safe and just rolled through is beyond reasonable to me. Stop signs serve more than to make sure it is safe to proceed. They also meter traffic and allow cross traffic down stream to flow onto the main artery. I exit my street just downroad from a stop sign. When folks start rolling through, there can be very long waits for a break in traffic so I can enter the street. Granted, these signs serve almost no purpose in non-peak hours and are frustrating at best to come to stop at with no other traffic around. Now, having enforcement on these intersections at off peak times making sure everyone is coming to a full and complete stop is a real "chickenshit ticket."

[tmgs]

I'm kinda surprised at what I'm reading here.

Stop signs serve more than to make sure it is safe to proceed. They also meter traffic and allow cross traffic down stream to flow onto the main artery.


You are right!
Thing is, no one cares about the other driver in this country.
No consideration for other drivers

[gpolakow]

I read here (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14515) that if you stop without putting a foot down you can get a ticket. I don't have the experience you all do, so that was news to me.

I guess I can understand the principle that if you don't have a foot down you can't be completely stopped. But what if you are so good at slow speeds (some are, I'm not) that you can stop -- truly stop -- for a moment and then resume forward motion? Is that just a California law, or is it pretty universal?

Guess I'm just asking, in general terms, what's behind the requirement to have a foot down. Inquiring minds, you know...

I hear it's the law here in Iowa, too. Still, I hardly ever put my foot down at a stop. I find I can come to virtually a complete stop without putting my foot down and then ride on. If, for some reason, my view of intersecting traffic is impeded, I will stop altogether and put my foot down. Otherwise, no.

[motorman587]

I'm kinda surprised at what I'm reading here. Putting one's foot down is a debateable criteria for a stop, but then letting folks slide on stopping or not and calling it a "chickenshit ticket" if they someone made sure the intersection was safe and just rolled through is beyond reasonable to me. Stop signs serve more than to make sure it is safe to proceed. They also meter traffic and allow cross traffic down stream to flow onto the main artery. I exit my street just downroad from a stop sign. When folks start rolling through, there can be very long waits for a break in traffic so I can enter the street. Granted, these signs serve almost no purpose in non-peak hours and are frustrating at best to come to stop at with no other traffic around. Now, having enforcement on these intersections at off peak times making sure everyone is coming to a full and complete stop is a real "chickenshit ticket."

I am surprised in your response back and is beyond reasonable to me. I am working a busy rush hour 4 way stop sign. In your theory, I must issue each person that does not come to a complete stop a ticket. There is a break in traffic, meaning no cross traffic, and a person does not come to a complete stop, but slows to check traffic. So do I issue a ticket because it is rush hour traffic rule or do I use good judgement, which I have in the last 20 years??? I do not think that time day is a good measurement of traffic enforcement. It should be location and common sense.

[tmgs]

I am surprised in your response back and is beyond reasonable to me. I am working a busy rush hour 4 way stop sign. In your theory, I must issue each person that does not come to a complete stop a ticket. There is a break in traffic, meaning no cross traffic, and a person does not come to a complete stop, but slows to check traffic. So do I issue a ticket because it is rush hour traffic rule or do I use good judgement, which I have in the last 20 years??? I do not think that time day is a good measurement of traffic enforcement. It should be location and common sense.

I don't think he is questioning good judgment,

I think and I may be wrong, he was questioning someone calling a no stop ticket a chicken shit ticket

I was let off of a no stop ticket ON the BRP riding with some of the folks from this list, the gal (BRP ranger) was real nice about it, I think she had fun with us for a few anyhow, as I jumped off the bike and said it was him while pointing at (I think Bruce Harris) in a joking around manner. I was busted no doubt, but she used what I would call good judgement and let me slide, my wife said it was because I'm so hot

hahahahaha

[motorman587]

I don't think he is questioning good judgment,

I think and I may be wrong, he was questioning someone calling a no stop ticket a chicken shit ticket

I was let off of a no stop ticket ON the BRP riding with some of the folks from this list, the gal (BRP ranger) was real nice about it, I think she had fun with us for a few anyhow, as I jumped off the bike and said it was him while pointing at (I think Bruce Harris) in a joking around manner. I was busted no doubt, but she used what I would call good judgement and let me slide, my wife said it was because I'm so hot

hahahahaha

I think that what my point was and the troopers was, was good judgment, so I do not see why someone would be surprised with our response. Maybe because we are LEOs with good judgement.

[OneShot]

Recently a cop drove through a stop sign at a Walmart as I was walking across his path. I stopped, gave him the bird, and held it there. He rolled up to me and asked what is that for, I told him for not stopping. He said, mind your own business and drove off. That wasn't a nice civil servant thing to say. Especially to a guy that would put his life on the line if a cop needed help.

I stood there, launched another bird at him, and held it up until he drove out of sight. In the process, several people observed me and the cop as he drove off.

Mind my own business. I can't wait 'til next time.

[Gizmo1137]

Being a recently retired Texas LEO I pulled out the trusty traffic section and looked it up. There is no distinction for a stop between a cage and a motorcycle, simply states "Must come to a complete stop" and I know I can come to a complete stop without pulling my feet off the pegs, as majority of riders can, so like some have said, the LEO would have some discretion here, but by the book there is nothing stated about feet.

This is my understanding in states that I have lived in. I have a couple of friends who have either been ticketed or warned because they did not put their feet down, which apparently equates to not coming to a complete stop. This is bogus because it is possible to come to a complete stop without putting feet down. I think it comes down to either ignorance on the part of the officer or being a hardass. Because people have received such tickets, I put both feet down at stop signs when I see police in the vicinity as a matter of precaution.

[tlash]

Recently a cop drove through a stop sign at a Walmart as I was walking across his path. I stopped, gave him the bird, and held it there. He rolled up to me and asked what is that for, I told him for not stopping. He said, mind your own business and drove off. That wasn't a nice civil servant thing to say. Especially to a guy that would put his life on the line if a cop needed help.

I stood there, launched another bird at him, and held it up until he drove out of sight. In the process, several people observed me and the cop as he drove off.

Mind my own business. I can't wait 'til next time.
http://www.napanet.net/~tlash/bull.gif

[Daman858]

I have issued thousands of tickets over the years to motorists. I had a rule.....when issuing a ticket will I be able to go to court and not look like a complete jerk in front of the judge and the citizens? I always tried to write good quality tickets, 15 mph over the limit was ticket time, not warning. Stop sign violations were usually did the person intentionally run the sign at some speed or just failed to come to a complete stop that had to be measured in milliseconds. I did not have a "foot down" or "two feet down" rule and nothing is in Maryland law about that. In a city that averages about 300 murders a year, that kind of stuff was not really on our radar screen.

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that many police officers in smaller jurisdictions without much crime tend to issue a lot of "chicken s--t" tickets just for something to do or to feel superior or whatever the reason. Some might be forced to do so for revenue reasons. At any rate I always tried to treat the public like I wanted my family to be treated. Recently, my daughter received a well deserved speeding ticket in Virginia. The Virginia State Trooper was very polite yet professional. He also made sure that my daughter was OK due to it being late at night and in a rural area ( she was driving back to college) . I wrote to his commanding officer to compliment him on his professionalism.

And as far as "flipping the bird" to a police officer, well, back in the day that would have resulted in a wood shampoo. I don't make any excuses for this officer running a stop sign but I would not advise lowering yourself to that level of juvenile "bird flipping". Just call the commanding officer and say "I think your officer driving car 123 needs some driver's education on stopping for stop signs." Then courteously explain what happened.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion.

[OneShot]

http://www.napanet.net/~tlash/bull.gif

Mr. tlash, you're free to think however way you choose.

Daman858,
You're right. I will try it next time. I admit this situation was the lamest reason that I've ever flipped off an officer before. If it wasn't for the fact that I was in his path as he was not stopping, I would have just stopped him and ask him why he didn't stop. In this situation, I really wanted to get his attention. I didn't want to fight with him, just let him know, the public is watching. He may still think I'm full of BS, it doesn't change the fact that the public is stiil watching and judging.

Please don't get me going on, not using turn signals with cops. Ugh!

My past bird flipping experiences at officers were provoked by near-death situations when the officers nearly killed me on my bike or my family while we were in our car. In these situations the officers never questioned why the bird. They just gave a meager wave and kept going.

[retiredjj]

Most "stop" signs in parking lots are on private property and not a designated public roadway. Therefore they are not enforceable by officers. That doesn't mean you couldn't get in trouble if you ignored the sign and hit someone at least liability wise.

[OneShot]

An earlier posting on this site talked about various experiences from riders who received parking tickets in shopping centers in the lined areas, up on sidewalks near the buildings, in public common areas. Some of these stop signs are a few feet away from riders receiving tickets. As much as I like your suggestion, it may depend on the officer's discretion if he wants to write a stop sign violation or not. Seems like everything is fair game.

In one of our local mega-centers here in Knoxville, TN, the police have placed one of their portable observation towers in the center of the parking lots.

[retiredjj]

Well, what can I say. Check your local ordinances. Ignorance of the law is no excuse (god, i hate that saying)