How not to pass

[tmgs]

Two Harley's passing on a double yellow curve, the dragon perhaps?

http://www.twistedlimit.com/cbr/Twistedlimit317.WMV

[dshealey]

Two Harley's passing on a double yellow curve, the dragon perhaps?

http://www.twistedlimit.com/cbr/Twistedlimit317.WMV

That was the most clueless one I have ever seen! He was not even trying to turn, not leaning at all. Must have just bought the bike and never ridden before. Talk about "panic freeze", that is a prime example.

[tmgs]

That was the most clueless one I have ever seen! He was not even trying to turn, not leaning at all. Must have just bought the bike and never ridden before. Talk about "panic freeze", that is a prime example.

yea some riding huh, the other one dang near did the same thing.

Tom

[kosmo]

WOW monkey death grip on the old brake !!!!

[hschisler]

Nice save by the second rider.

[KMC1]

I'd say what I really think, but karma scares me!
:yeah: :thumb:

[cfell]

The link is now garbage only...won't play..

[michman]

The link is now garbage only...won't play..


just played for me....wow!! some driving.......

[BillyOmaha]

I agree with all the comments so far about the low level of skill shown by the m/c rider.

What I found interesting when I first started the video I was stunned by how slow the vehicle was moving (thinking at first it was a m/c) then realising it was a van of some sort. Still moving slowly by my standards, but more understandable.

In listening to the dialogue it's pretty clear the occupants of the van knew that they had held up the group of m/c's and had hadn't pulled to the side to let them by safely. By the sound of there panic to "let's go before they beat the shit out of us", they had probably been holding up the group for awhile.

.

[cfell]

Video wouldn't run in my Firefox... had to open Internet exploder..

Yeah, they knew what they were doing in the van... I'm not normally a violent guy but that would have been ugly if they had waited around.

The riders were focused on helping their friend... after that the van had best not be around...

The rider who crashed sure could use some training if he keeps riding...

[ranks]

I can totally sympathize with the people in the van.

1) They were probably going the speed limit, maybe 5 under.
2) There aren't many places to pull over.
3) It is up to the passer to make a safe pass, not the person in front to pull over.
4) Sure its nice to have someone pull over and let you pass, but its not required, and I don't think it should be held against them.
5)They did say they would have pulled over if there was a place to.
6) At first they slowed and thought about stopping to help, but were intimidated by the "Biker" image. Hollywood, and that pass didn't help any there.
7) They didn't leave until plenty of help was on hand.

The only thing they SHOULD have done was stay at the seen of the accident.

Personally, I would rather make a pass when I feel its safe than to have someone try to be helpful, pull over, and wind up throwing sand, gravel, rocks up at me because their tires left the pavement.

It's a shame he went off the road, don't know if he was hurt, but obviously, he doesn't have the skill to be trying to pass on that kind of road. It is 100% his fault.

Flame away

[cfell]

Hey, James.. no "flames" here, pardner... I actually understand your points and agree with most.

The folks in the van had no "requirement" to do what's right. After all it is the American way. It's all about "me". Humbug.

The guy riding the bike was also at fault. Clearly.

[vtwinwilly]

If you go back and slow it down to frame-by-frame (pause, play, pause, play, etc.), you can see that the rider passed the van, then slammed on the brakes to scrub off speed. Unfortunately, he locked up the rear brake and (again frame-by-frame) you can see him slide sideways off into the ditch.

Ahhhh the joy of anti-lock brakes!:D

BB

[KMC1]

Cfell, I don't mean to flame you, but if you think passing on a double yellow into a sharp turn, without the obvious skill level required to operate safely, is the "right" thing to do.... you're wrong.
I totally agree with all the points Ranks stated with the additional comment that thinking the public roads are a racetrack, (the "me" attitude you mention) in particular "The Dragon" (stupid name - great exploitation of the area by Daryll from Killboy) is going to end up ruining the great riding area around there for ALL OF US.
Also, thank God there wasn't another vehicle coming, or that dropoff one of the ones up on the Cherahala!

[REWDOC]

I can totally sympathize with the people in the van.
3) It is up to the passer to make a safe pass, not the person in front to pull over.

Not that I haven't done it or wouldn't do it, also (needless to say, without running off the road). ;) The biker was making an illegal pass on a double yellow line (no passing zone). The guy in the Van did nothing wrong, other than not stopping to offer assistance. But, as others have said, many other bikers were stopping to help, and it sounded like they were scared they were going to be beaten to death.

[cfell]

No flame taken KCM1.. it's good to discuss, sir.

[tmgs]

Nice save by the second rider.

for being stupid and following the first rider almost off the road? hahahahah

that was pure luck

[tmgs]

I agree with all the comments so far about the low level of skill shown by the m/c rider.

What I found interesting when I first started the video I was stunned by how slow the vehicle was moving (thinking at first it was a m/c) then realising it was a van of some sort. Still moving slowly by my standards, but more understandable.

In listening to the dialogue it's pretty clear the occupants of the van knew that they had held up the group of m/c's and had hadn't pulled to the side to let them by safely. By the sound of there panic to "let's go before they beat the shit out of us", they had probably been holding up the group for awhile.

.

ever rode there? I should say if in fact it is deals gap
there is like two places to pull over and not a straight stretch , the guys on the bikes were 100% at fault

[BillyOmaha]

I can totally sympathize with the people in the van.

1) They were probably going the speed limit, maybe 5 under.
2) There aren't many places to pull over.
3) It is up to the passer to make a safe pass, not the person in front to pull over.
4) Sure its nice to have someone pull over and let you pass, but its not required, and I don't think it should be held against them.
5)They did say they would have pulled over if there was a place to.
6) At first they slowed and thought about stopping to help, but were intimidated by the "Biker" image. Hollywood, and that pass didn't help any there.
7) They didn't leave until plenty of help was on hand.

The only thing they SHOULD have done was stay at the seen of the accident.

Personally, I would rather make a pass when I feel its safe than to have someone try to be helpful, pull over, and wind up throwing sand, gravel, rocks up at me because their tires left the pavement.

It's a shame he went off the road, don't know if he was hurt, but obviously, he doesn't have the skill to be trying to pass on that kind of road. It is 100% his fault.

Flame awayI'm feeling a bit pissy tonight so, FLAME ON! ;)

When I'm impeding the progress of others it's my "responsibility" to let them pass. Failure to do so is saying to them, "I'm more important than you".

If I were in the situation, I would have simply pulled as far to the right as possible and slowed to let them pass. Then, when the situation that was in the video occurred ahead of me, I would have stopped and, if necessary, transported the rider to the hospital. I would not have feared that they were angry with me.

Responsibility and Blame are to different concepts.

.

[BillyOmaha]

ever rode there? I should say if in fact it is deals gap
there is like two places to pull over and not a straight stretch , the guys on the bikes were 100% at fault You won't get an argument from me about "fault". But "fault" is a legal concept.

As a m/C'ist I take total responsibility for my environment. But as a cage driver, I also understand in that situation that I'm holding up the pack...Just slow on the right in between corners and they're by me...simple and cooperative.


.

[grifscoots]

When I'm impeding the progress of others it's my "responsibility" to let them pass. Failure to do so is saying to them, "I'm more important than you".

.

There's a name for folks who impede others or get in the left lane and drive slow: Passive Aggresive.

Some Police force's have include passive aggresive into their road rage program's.

[UncleRock]

Thank you that just made my morning, funny as hell !
Sofa King We Todd Did
Say that real slow and slur your speach. :D
Yeah that was on the dragon.
Rock

[hawg]

I agree with all the comments so far about the low level of skill shown by the m/c rider.

What I found interesting when I first started the video I was stunned by how slow the vehicle was moving (thinking at first it was a m/c) then realising it was a van of some sort. Still moving slowly by my standards, but more understandable.

In listening to the dialogue it's pretty clear the occupants of the van knew that they had held up the group of m/c's and had hadn't pulled to the side to let them by safely. By the sound of there panic to "let's go before they beat the shit out of us", they had probably been holding up the group for awhile.

.

Billy, I must disagree on the one comment about holding up the group of bikers behind them. Those twisty roads have a very low speed limit. If a motorcyclist wants to pass and exceed the speed limit...that is his choice. It is not a right. It appears that the cager was driving slow but it is NOT his responsibility to pull over so others can exceed the speed limit.

If any of us want to take on the responsibility of exceeding the speed limit, then we must accept the consequences whether it be a ticket or losing control. I, too, have been ticked by slow traffic, but the bottom line is...they were within the speed limit. I was the one breaking the law...not them for not pulling over.

Yeah, it would be nice if motorcycles were given more leeway, etc. but still, a family does not have to pull over whilst driving on a public road. Same with the HOV lane in Atlanta...speed limit is 55 mph. Unbelievably, many folks think it is an express lane and get pissed when cars are "only" going 70 and won't pull over.

Courtesy and respect work both ways.

[tmgs]

I'm feeling a bit pissy tonight so, FLAME ON! ;)

When I'm impeding the progress of others it's my "responsibility" to let them pass. Failure to do so is saying to them, "I'm more important than you".

If I were in the situation, I would have simply pulled as far to the right as possible and slowed to let them pass. Then, when the situation that was in the video occurred ahead of me, I would have stopped and, if necessary, transported the rider to the hospital. I would not have feared that they were angry with me.

Responsibility and Blame are to different concepts.

.


well since you were feeling pissy last night and since them damn dogs are at it again, I'll tell ya how I FEEL! <grin>


I've been in that situation quite a few times up here, the roads are very tight, i would bet big money they had no clue the bikes were behind them until a curve or two before, (If then) listen to the Video once, you couldn't hear them til the proceding curve,

I bet you would be hard pressed to find a place _half_ safe to pull over enough to let anything pass you in a VAN without actually running off the curves, and some of these curves have NO shoulder at all.
I won't run off the road here to let anyone bye me unless it is a straight road and I can clearly see the edge to be sure it is still there from one day to the next even in my 4x4 truck.

and I am one of the _very_ courteous drivers up here. most just laugh when ya try to pass, those riders were just flat dumb.

[messenger13]

Personally, I think the first one took the perfect line for a Harley. If only the second would've followed! Then that would've been two less Harleys in my way! :D

I find NO FAULT with the cagers...period.

[hschisler]

for being stupid and following the first rider almost off the road? hahahahah

that was pure luckNo, for managing to not go into the woods and getting back on the road. Looked like he had a little skill, a lot of luck, or both.:D

[tmgs]

Personally, I think the first one took the perfect line for a Harley. If only the second would've followed! Then that would've been two less Harleys in my way! :D

I find NO FAULT with the cagers...period.

and just who was it that was first to get turned around when that we came across that wrecked Harley ?

<G>

[hschisler]

I think there is a significant problem (real or perceived) when we believe our lives are in danger when a "biker" is involved. If I had been the driver or an occupant of that car I hope I would have had the fortitude, common sense, ethics (or whatever) to stay at the scene and help as much as possible. If the bikers then want to beat me because I "made" the guy go off road I'll take it. I wouldn't be happy about that (duh) but for me the bottom line is they passed on a double yellow.

I know we've beaten that dead horse previously, and recently, here. The double yellow lines are not "suggestions", and don't mean "everybody obeys this traffic signal except skilled motorcyclists who want to travel faster than you are going." On a public road you take your chances with being behind a logging truck, farm equipment, 98 year-old driver, etc. Want to go faster? Leave sooner, visit a remote road, or get on a track.

I have zero sympathy for the biker in this instance. I hope the guy wasn't hurt, but he is to blame. He'll probably go back to his local HOG meeting and rant about the dumba$$es who caused him to wreck.

FWIW: when I was on the Dragon in April (once by car, once by bike) I pulled over whenever there was (a) somebody behind me and (b) a chance to do so. Killboy even got a photo of me pulling over to let the mo-rons in S2000s go by during STC.

<flame suit on>

[tmgs]

No, for managing to not go into the woods and getting back on the road. Looked like he had a little skill, a lot of luck, or both.:D
\
\
i know what ya meant, i was giving a poke

<g>

[tmgs]

I think there is a significant problem (real or perceived) when we believe our lives are in danger when a "biker" is involved. If I had been the driver or an occupant of that car I hope I would have had the fortitude, common sense, ethics (or whatever) to stay at the scene and help as much as possible. If the bikers then want to beat me because I "made" the guy go off road I'll take it. I wouldn't be happy about that (duh) but for me the bottom line is they passed on a double yellow.

I know we've beaten that dead horse previously, and recently, here. The double yellow lines are not "suggestions", and don't mean "everybody obeys this traffic signal except skilled motorcyclists who want to travel faster than you are going." On a public road you take your chances with being behind a logging truck, farm equipment, 98 year-old driver, etc. Want to go faster? Leave sooner, visit a remote road, or get on a track.

I have zero sympathy for the biker in this instance. I hope the guy wasn't hurt, but he is to blame. He'll probably go back to his local HOG meeting and rant about the dumba$$es who caused him to wreck.

FWIW: when I was on the Dragon in April (once by car, once by bike) I pulled over whenever there was (a) somebody behind me and (b) a chance to do so. Killboy even got a photo of me pulling over to let the mo-rons in S2000s go by during STC.

<flame suit on>


there is absolutly no way I would have left that guy off the road, I wouuld have stopped asked someone to stoptraffic or slow it a safe distacne up the road,

there would have been no beating on anyone period.

Tom

[dshealey]

In California the law states that if five or more vehicles are behind a slower moving vehicle, that slower vehicle is required to move over at the next safe place to do so and let them by.

Copied from the vehicle code:

"Special "turnout" areas are sometimes marked on two-lane roads. You may pull into these areas and allow vehicles behind you to pass. Other two-lane roads sometimes have a passing lane. When you drive a slow-moving vehicle on a two-lane highway or road where passing is unsafe, and five or more vehicles are following you, pull to the side of the road wherever you can safely do so to let the vehicles pass.
Try to stay to the right of the lane so the vehicles behind you can see ahead. Remember to pull off the road when it is safe and allow the faster vehicles to pass. "

[SilverBuffalo]

There's lots of factors here and I've been in both situations,
Stuck behind a slow moving vehicle and frustrated to the point where I was almost ready to do something stupid.
And in the lead in my truck with no place to move over at as fast a pace as my skill level allows me to go on unfamiliar roads.

In this situation it appears that the vehicle driver was totally clueless like most of the automobile drivers on the road.
The biker appears to have passed out of frustration and possibly peer pressure as he was riding with a group.

This is precisely the reason why I avoid places like the dragon, there's too many idiots, some very skilled and some totally unskilled riders trying to prove their "manliness" by passing on the double yellow etc. etc.

Maybe you're one of the highly skilled riders that passes on the inside or outside or double yellow, you may even feel it's your "right" to do so.

Maybe the person you're passing doesn't have the skill level to deal with your actions, maybe an other testosterone driven rider is trying to keep up with you and riding beyond his/her skill level.

I don't want to be around any of that BS, I just want to ride my motorcycle
so regardless of whether you're a novice riding the Dragon because you've "heard" about how "cool" it is or an experienced "roadracer" (even if you just think you are) when you break the rules or in this case traffic laws, you are nothing more to me than another road hazard.
Regardless of how "studly" you may feel.

[tmgs]

In California the law states that if five or more vehicles are behind a slower moving vehicle, that slower vehicle is required to move over at the next safe place to do so and let them by.

Copied from the vehicle code:

"Special "turnout" areas are sometimes marked on two-lane roads. You may pull into these areas and allow vehicles behind you to pass. Other two-lane roads sometimes have a passing lane. When you drive a slow-moving vehicle on a two-lane highway or road where passing is unsafe, and five or more vehicles are following you, pull to the side of the road wherever you can safely do so to let the vehicles pass.
Try to stay to the right of the lane so the vehicles behind you can see ahead. Remember to pull off the road when it is safe and allow the faster vehicles to pass. "

Key word, SAFE. and I agree, 100% it should be that way. However up here therre are many many places there are no safe places to pull off for a long long time

we have roads that stretch for 10-20 miles (or it seems that long) there is absolutly no safe place and the few pull offs there are you better know where they are or you are going to pass them before you can get pulled over particulary if your eyes are glued to unfamiliar roads

[NM99K12LT]

The "biker" is 100% at fault.

I would guess from the video that the vehicle passed is some type of RV based on the apparent lack of a hood and size of the "vent" window and side view mirror. While I can empathize with the frustration of having a great ride and view obstructed by a slow moving RV, there really is no excuse for passing over a double line, with that many tight radius turns and most especially on a HD!

Yeah, I agree that the RV/car/truck should pull over, but...that type of awareness and courtesy is rare in my experience and that road does not appear to have turn outs or shoulders.

The second rider is the luckiest human being on earth as he followed too closely and on the same line as the first instead of following the road...no lean, no counter steer, no directional look, no throttle, etc., etc., etc. No wait - the first rider is! - because the second rider's bike did not follow directly behind and land on him.

When I rode a HD Road King I was on a holy mission to preach counter steering and was always amazed at the number of "bikers" who had never even heard of it let alone used it. If you're on a HD and don't counter steer you are just counting the time til you meet a guard rail on a curve - see it all the time out here on mountain roads - short straight black streak just before damaged guard rail at apex of curve. This video is a perfect example of a bike and biker being pushed beyond their respective abilities and the clearest evidence one could produce for mandatory MSF instruction before the issuance of a MC license or endorsement.

I hope the rider was not injured and comes to realize the real cause of his accident and immediately enrolls in the MSF Basic Rider Course before getting out on the road again.

[BillyOmaha]

Howdy Dave,

I don't disagree with you, or even Joe :eek:, about the van driver not being at fault. Clearly they were "within their rights" to drive the way did.

What I am referring to is personal responsibility. If I were the van driver AND the bikes had been behind me for awhile (with no foreseable passing opporunity upcoming), then I would have put on my blinker in a left hand curve, scooted over to the right a few feet and let them slide on by.

I have a video (still trying to shrink it from High Def so I can post it) of me boogying along in a very much similar situation as that shown in this post. I came up on an F150, after a few curves he did exactly as I suggested above and away Nancy and I went. Gave him a pleasant wave and we enjoyed the rest of the curves.

/touchy feely/ on
I guess my point is the world is a much better place when we think of others and be cooperative.
/touchy feely/ off

.

[Bruce_N]

I live just off the Blue Ridge Parkway and travel roads similar to this frequently. I see sport bikes passing cars quite often in tight turns. But on a HD ?? The guy was clearly riding way over his head, or way over the limits of the bike, whichever. And the second guy was even stupider to be following in a similar manner. Now whether or not the van driver should have pulled over is a matter of debate, but I think everyone would agree that the HD riders were out of control.

[dshealey]

------------- The guy was clearly riding way over his head, or way over the limits of the bike, whichever. ------------.

Over the rider's limits entirely. Even the biggest, heaviest Harley made would have negotiated that turn and not even been remotely near the bike's limits. He basically just got behind his thinking curve, and into panic lock, did absolutely NOTHING to change the outcome in the seconds he had. The second rider also just followed where he was looking, at the rear of the other bike. Even he should have been able to stay on the pavement with no problem, so he was just barely more competent than the first rider.

When I got my first LT in 2000 I was riding in the mountains here, all alone with no traffic, and got into a decreasing radius turn I was not expecting, and luckily there was no traffic, as I went into the other lane for a bit before I got enough scare into me to lean it further. Fortunately I did not get into that panic lock situation and keep going on the line I was in, or I would have been in the trees. Learned a lot from that little foray, and always thankful I was lucky enough to have no oncome traffic at the time. I can still remember the feeling though. Took me a while to get my heart settled back down.

Most of us start out without any decent skills, and luck plays a huge part in keeping us alive until we do sort it out. Even after many thousands of miles, and pretty competent in the handling of the bike, I still had two bad accidents, so there are things way beyond basic bike handling that can reach out and get you! A couple seconds of distraction took care of my riding, hopefully not for good though.

[dshealey]

-----------When I rode a HD Road King I was on a holy mission to preach counter steering and was always amazed at the number of "bikers" who had never even heard of it let alone used it. If you ride at all you are using countersteering, maybe not aware of it enough to increase it when really needed, but using in nonetheless. All riders do need to be preached to so they are AWARE of what they are really doing, so your preaching was certainly correct, not so they would use it, but so that they could be aware of it when in a situation that required a lot more of it. A bike just plain will not turn to any useable extent if you don't countersteer. You can get a really light bike to make some large radius turns by body steering, but the heavier the bike the less body steer affect you can have on it. It is almost non existent on a big Harley, or the LT. I tried hard to body steer the LT on the highway just to see how much I could do it, at best I could only make a long lane change. Not hanging off like a monkey, but sliding over in the seat and leaning out as much as I felt comfortable, but the big lady practically ignores you. I got much better results at highway speeds getting the bike to turn by sticking my hands out into the wind stream. Right hand out to turn left, and vice/versa. I think that was one reason my body steering trials were so bad, the leaning out was putting my body into the windstream causing the opposite affect to what I was trying to get.

[Dick]

Two Harley's passing on a double yellow curve, the dragon perhaps?

http://www.twistedlimit.com/cbr/Twistedlimit317.WMV
Not knowing the fate of the first rider, I would hope he survived without serious injury. I say both he and the second rider are dang lucky there were no guardrails on that particular stretch of road. And the second rider barely escaped a rear slide out - he did get a leetle rear-end twitch just before going off the road. It wuz kinda like he target fixated on the first bike's path. And it's hard to tell for sure, butt one of the following riders (white pull over shirt, I think) wuz just barely on asphalt when the camera first caught him going by. Could be that he wuz trying to get a glimpse down into the ravine, I guess?

And those camera shots of the following riders going by sure make it seem like the camera wuz a lot higher above them than would be a shot taken from a van - but I guess that could be accounted for by the road camber. All the riders did park on the uphill side of the road - even the second rider moved his bike over there after running off the road on the left side.

The outside rearview mirror of the cage doesn't resemble a large RV's mirror, tho. All the one's I've seen appear to provide a larger field of view, so this may have just been a van.

All in all, I hope the guy is ok. I wish the cage would have stopped at the scene of the accident and rendered assistance if needed. For other travelers on the road, in either direction, he would have been easier to spot at a standstill, from a distance, with emergency blinkers on, than the bikes on the side of the road. JMHO.

[BillyOmaha]

Here's a LINK (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=89275#poststop) that has a clip with a bit of double-yellow passing, but it's an LT :eek:

.

[starky]

Thank you that just made my morning, funny as hell !
Sofa King We Todd Did
Say that real slow and slur your speach. :D
Yeah that was on the dragon.
Rock
Just what I was thinking and the slow slurred speach, while it took a while to get it, is hilarious!

I'm always amazed at how many totally incompetant riders there are out there doing incredibly stupid things.

The Ranger on the BRP , who gave my buddy and I a ticket for going too fast, told us that there are more deaths on the BRP every year because so many riders come down with so little experience on those twistie, decreasing radius, etc, etc, roads and when they get in above there head, ie: scrape their pegs or whatever, the immediate response is to STAND THE BIKE UP and then.... over or into whatever.
Looks to me like that manoeuvre was just too much for those guys.

Starky

[messenger13]

and just who was it that was first to get turned around when that we came across that wrecked Harley ?

<G>Just for the record...Tom and I (among others) were riding in the twisties of the North Georgia mountains, when we came across a female rider that blew a mild curve. Fortunately she wasn't going too fast. To make a long story short, four non-Harley riding bikers earned some respect from a group of Harley riders that morning. ;) These people had no business on those roads, especially dressed the way they were. It's no wonder so many fatalities happen each year.

[bowlesj]

These people had no business on those roads, especially dressed the way they were. It's no wonder so many fatalities happen each year.

Now you know why my insurance rates have skyrocketed since moving to NC.
Ridiculous:mad: