Gotcha! LEO got me - How?

[dshogman]

Brand new to this forum. Have been spending most of my time on the Sport Touring forum.
So yesterday I'm cruising at a respectable 80+ and cresting a rise on ID8 heading west towards Moscow, ID. As I crest the hill, I must have slowed down a bit and coming down the next hill is a car with a light bar on the top. As we get closer, the lights come on and he swings a fast u-turn right behind me. I pull over and he tells me I'm doing 72 in a 55. Long story short - we talk, he admires the bike (red, of course) and tells me to take it easy and keep it down to 55.
So HOW did he get me? I've never had a radar detector and I always thought they couldn't get you coming head on. (As my buddy says, when i was riding the HD softail I didn't have to worry about it as the vibes would slow me down before seeing the LEO would.)
I guess I need some basic education. Would appreciate it. (Especially since on my trip up from Lewiston on ID3 I was exceeding the 55 by an even more substantial number than 72! :p

[JPSpen]

Modern radar, or laser can get you coming, going, sideways......

Iffn you're gonna speed, you might want to invest the price of a ticket in a radar detector..... Before you have to invest it on a ticket, insurance premiums, etc......

Good Luck

John

[andy]

There is no such thing as a moving laser or lidar(yet) but moving radar, yes, that is possible. But at the same time, BECUSE it is possible if there is other traffic around you, noone can be sure whom the laser really got.

That can be proven with just a little math: the BEST radar gun has a 12degree cone in which it send radar impulses and receives, undiscriminately. That means if there are two or more vehicles on the road nobody in the world can tell which one of the two vehicles got 'hit' unless there is a tremendous speed difference.

[dshealey]

Radar works just fine, forward, backward, and when moving. The car mounted units are checking both the road surface for the car's speed and your vehicle's speed. It mathematically compares the two to get the actual vehicle speed. Handheld units have to be stationary though.

A detector can certainly warn you against the always on moving radars, but some are now using the "POP", or instant on units, and they operating officer does not trigger them until he thinks you are a prime suspect, then "POP", the detector is now just a notice to pull over for your ticket.

Still though, many car units are still running allways on when they are cruising along, so the detector can save you a high percentage of the time.

[ldrider]

There is no such thing as a moving laser or lidar(yet) but moving radar, yes, that is possible. But at the same time, BECUSE it is possible if there is other traffic around you, noone can be sure whom the laser really got.

I think you mean whom the _radar_ really got

That can be proven with just a little math: the BEST radar gun has a 12degree cone in which it send radar impulses and receives, undiscriminately. That means if there are two or more vehicles on the road nobody in the world can tell which one of the two vehicles got 'hit' unless there is a tremendous speed difference.

There doesn't need to be a great difference in speed. Many Police radar now can return 2 numbers, the strongest signal and the fastest (highest freq) signal. So, if a bike is passing a semi, he should be able to know the speed of each. It does depend on the officer paying attention. He should have estimated your speed prior to using radar, and in this case it sounded like there was not too many people around him anyhow.

Joe

[motorhead]

I agree that the cost of your first performance award will pay for a detector.

:( case in point, just got back from a 3700 mile trip and was pulled over doing 64 in a 55 zone by a Montana leo ...

In the 13 days we traveled, this was the only day detector was not mounted & working. (were stopping & hiking a lot that day )

leo had a talk with us, stating after checking our licences .. I quote:
Out of tickets & out of warning citations, what can i do but tell you to slow it down & have a nice day :confused: .... how odd is that ?

Get a detector & USE IT !!

Scott

[NascaLT]

Well, a little insight on this (was in the "biz" for 28 years) .... there is lots of technology for speed detection, including VASCAR, radar and laser. Laser is pretty darn good and is as good as the user. Any detector you have is clearly that; a detector (a receiver). So the detector goes off once the beam hits it. The detectors work best when the officer leaves his unit on (always transmitting) and he watches to visually estimate your speed as well as listens for the audible tone (if equipped on the speed measureing device). The higher the pitch, the faster the target. Reality could well be that the officer is sipping a cup of coffee and "just hangin' out" and waits for the tone. The LEO looks up, sees who is moving the fastest and bingo ... citation time. One of the obligations we had is to be able to visually estimate speeds of vehicles. After I did it for a year or so I could always be within a mile or two an hour of actual. So a properly trained LEO knows how fast you are going without any help. I can't offer much advice; I've never had a detector and haven't needed one. It's not that I had the "courtesy card" with me; I just didn't get pulled over. Did I exceed the speed limits? Sure, but not enough to motivate someone to stop me. Remember, your distance traveled is roughly 1.5 feet per second X miles an hour. 60 mph is 90 ft. a second. Figure a half a second to respond and a half a second for your equipment to perform their task so if you're going 80 and someone pulls out in front of you and stops 225 feet away you will not be able to stop in time (reaction, both physical and mechanical, just ate 120 feet). Hopefully your avoidance techniques are good. Remember, the issue, for the most part, is not the motorcyclist. It's those other knuckleheads on the road. And someone speeding brings more than "just going too fast" in an LEO's mind. At posted 70 mph, I'll hang a tad over 75 and, well, haven't been stopped yet. (hint). Be safe first ....

[atrovarious]

Careful about what you read esp on this subject even here.
Pop is used stationary only. Since it's inception two or more years ago, I have yet to truely incounter it though my escort has alerted falsely to POP after hundreds of thousands of miles otr. I finally disabled the feature.
Instant on is not the same as pop and can be used moving. While I have heard of guns that read the speed of multiple bogey's I think this is a misconception. Yes they read two speeds but as noted above one of those speeds is the patrol car speed. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I won't beleive it until I see it. Many have claimed that they do this by sending out multiple frequencies however my bogey counter on my V1 and my frequency reader and bogey counter on my escort say this is simply not the case.

[Ric]

Unfortunately, yes there are radar sets on the market that allow two readings, but not at the same time. To work properly, the LEO locks in the first speed, but the radar continues to track further speeds. This is usually done to complete a tracking history on a vehicle if required by law. From a personal standpoint and now retired professional standpoint, I see no need for a radar detector. They only alert you when the radar unit is sending out a signal and if the LEO is smart, he/she only sends out a signal after a high speed vehicle is observed. Remember, radar doesn't tell the officer someone is speeding, it tells them how fast someone is going. FWIW, I almost never gave a break to someone that had a radar detector and was over my tolerance level. If they could afford the detector, they could afford the ticket.

[deputy5211]

Most moving-mode units track opposite direction targets, and some have the ability to track same-direction targets as well. There are units that can track multiple targets at the same time, including faster target (which is not, by the way the highest frequency, see note below) and strongest signal target.

Tracking history and visual speed estimation are essential. As a certified police doppler radar instructor, I can't certify an operator who cannot consistently visually estimate target speed withing a pre-defined tolerance. At the end of the training, the operator must visually estimate the speed of at least 25 vehicles from a stationary position, and at least 25 additional from a moving vehicle. I record the estimated speed as well as the speed reported by the radar unit (display not in view of driver and sound turned off) and back at the office I run a little utility that compares the data values and verifies whether the estimates are within spec or not.

As for the comment that radar does not tell you when someone is speeding, only what speed they are traveling, that was not always the case. Some of the older units had the ability to set a threshold and alert only when a target exceeded the threshold. I have heard stories of some officers who would park their squads and snooze until the threshold was met and the alert tone went off. To me, the thought of sleeping on duty, in a marked car no less, is an invitation for disaster, but not everyone saw it that way.

[NOTE: Return signal from fastest target is not necessarily the highest frequency. Police doppler radar works by comparing the doppler shift between the outbound signal and the return signal and mathematically calculating a speed (deducting for patrol speed as necessary in moving mode). The returned signal frequency may be higher or lower depending on whether target is moving towards or away from the antenna, but the difference between the signals will be the same for a given target speed. Basically, the unit does not care what the frequencies are, just the difference between the two. Images attached.]

[BLBantz]

We had those units back in the late 70's. You could set the speed you wanted to be alerted at. I never thought that feature was of much use other than to squelch the noise until someone was speeding. Those units (I forget now who made them) only worked in stationary mode or on the vehicles coming at you in the opposite direction. Also, they seemed much more powerful as they could pick up cars a mile or two away whereas the new ones only seemed to work for about 1/2 mile. We used to clock low flying aircraft and trains too. Now...do you believe in ghost readings or were there really invisible cars going 400 mph?

[deputy5211]

Now...do you believe in ghost readings or were there really invisible cars going 400 mph?

There are terms that we tell officers to avoid using, including:

Ghost Readings
"Calibrate" the RADAR unit
Checklist
Error
Quota
Speed Trap


I have seen the blower fan create false readings time and again. As for invisible 400 mph cars, can I get one, please? :)

[BerryG]

Always an interesting topic.

I have a radar detector but in reality I don't need one. Yes, I do travel over the speed limit but I don't get crazy and thus far I haven't been stopped.

The one real use I have found for the detector is an early warning for the mass brake check that will be happening when all the cars that are passing me see the CHP car they are approaching at 80 to 90 mph.

When the V1 goes off I just try to find a safe spot in the slow lane, hunker down and wait for the tire smoke to blow away.

I see a lot of near wrecks almost every day when the drivers lock up the brakes trying to look like they weren't going near a hundred.

I 580 near Tracy Ca has always been crazy but it seems to be getting worse.

[Morley]

. We used to clock low flying aircraft
There was a N.D. St trooper that did that to a B-52 on final once...ONCE. Careful what you shoot with that thing...sometimes they shoot back.

[atrovarious]

Unfortunately, yes there are radar sets on the market that allow two readings, but not at the same time. To work properly, the LEO locks in the first speed, but the radar continues to track further speeds. This is usually done to complete a tracking history on a vehicle if required by law. From a personal standpoint and now retired professional standpoint, I see no need for a radar detector. They only alert you when the radar unit is sending out a signal and if the LEO is smart, he/she only sends out a signal after a high speed vehicle is observed. Remember, radar doesn't tell the officer someone is speeding, it tells them how fast someone is going. FWIW, I almost never gave a break to someone that had a radar detector and was over my tolerance level. If they could afford the detector, they could afford the ticket.
Right on, I buy that. It does give you plenty of time to get your speed down if you are the smaller target though.

[Lost_but_Happy]

There's one other possibility. In Iowa the State Patrol uses planes and stopwatches (at least they used to, not sure if they still do). State highways and interstates have lines painted on every quarter-mile (I think). The trooper in the plane uses the stopwatch to time the travel between the two markers, calculates the time and then calls the in-car trooper to pull you over.

Not too many radar detectors would be able to pick up on that scenario... :rotf:

[hschisler]

There's one other possibility. In Iowa the State Patrol uses planes and stopwatches (at least they used to, not sure if they still do). State highways and interstates have lines painted on every quarter-mile (I think). The trooper in the plane uses the stopwatch to time the travel between the two markers, calculates the time and then calls the in-car trooper to pull you over.

Not too many radar detectors would be able to pick up on that scenario... :rotf:Stinger missiles...? :D


<just kidding; please -- no flaming from our LEO brethren)

[andy]

While a radar detector does not help you in this case, your chances of your case being dismissed are actually pretty good. If you decide to go to court instead of just mailing in your ticket the 'people' need now TWO LEO's in court. if not BOTH(the one in the plane that determined the speed AND the one on the ground that stopped you and gave you the ticket) of them show up you can request your ticket to be dismissed. Basic civil rights: You have the RIGHT to face your accuser. An anonymous accuser in the sky doesn't count.

I myself run a V1 with an external display, and have it hidden in the right saddlebag. YES, that give me a TAD less range, but I never have to take it off, the display is almost invisible, since it's "integrated" into the dash.

[atrovarious]

While a radar detector does not help you in this case, your chances of your case being dismissed are actually pretty good. If you decide to go to court instead of just mailing in your ticket the 'people' need now TWO LEO's in court. if not BOTH(the one in the plane that determined the speed AND the one on the ground that stopped you and gave you the ticket) of them show up you can request your ticket to be dismissed. Basic civil rights: You have the RIGHT to face your accuser. An anonymous accuser in the sky doesn't count.

I myself run a V1 with an external display, and have it hidden in the right saddlebag. YES, that give me a TAD less range, but I never have to take it off, the display is almost invisible, since it's "integrated" into the dash.
How bout some pics andy? sounds nicely done.

[2002redrider]

I am a fan of radar detection and having a good one and knowing what it is saying along with not doing anything really stupid has saved me numerous tickets.
I have a Valentine 1 mounted on a Pirates Lair shelf on top of the gauges attached to the inside of the wind screen on my 2003 K1200RS. It is hard wired using the modular phone plug, and attached with velcro for easy removal (by me). In addition I use the H.A.R.D. wireless remote LED that flashes when the detector goes off, attached to the inside of my chin bar. Pretty seamless rig. Just picked up a 2000 LT over the weekend so I haven't figured out how to mount the V-1 on it. Looking around.

The rear facing antenna picks up radar signals from behind me even though my body is blocking direct line of sight. With laser, by the time it goes off, they have you if they want you front or rear as is is a very narrow beam. Just don't lead the pack all the time 30 over, particularly when cresting a hill or on a long straight until you can make out the profile of the oncoming car and be certain it is not one of them. Having a shield vehicle a quarter to one mile ahead even for short periods reduces your risk as the instant on mode will hit them first. You will detect it by very short, very intense bursts. If the LOE leaves it on you will detect him a couple of miles away-too easy.

Mike
2003 K1200RS
2000 K1200LT

[coug66]

I have a buddy who is a WSP in WA. He showed me his radar called the tracker and it is operated with a remote control he can radar front and back but he can also pick the fastest speed in the group and choose left or right side in a pack of cars.

The remote is for when he is out of the car he can simply swich directions of detection with a simple push of the button.

I have seen so many State troopers with Laser I had no idea they actually had radar.

He got me the other day when I did not have my detector installed and I was fumbling with the radio doing 75 in a 55mph on a mountain road HWY 410 near Greenwater. The pucker factor was strong even after he stepped out of the car. For sme reason I could not calm my heart rate for at least 20 minutes. I was determined to mount a detector after that.

Ian

[info]

I have found a good lawyer much more reliable than a radar detector especially in Washington. One day I was stopped twice within about 15 minutes. Both were unreasonable stops in my mind but, hey, there was a bike rally nearby and everyone knows how dangerous they can be.
Anyway the second ticket resulted in a 20 over on I 5 by the WSP.
Lawyered up and there was no subsequent increase in my insurance rates.
I always wondered though whether I should have been stopped or the f&^**g
SUV that was really dangerously close behind me. I really just wanted to get out of the way but there was that bike rally after all.

[BCDon]

Good conversation about the pros and cons and capabilities. From my perspective:

1) I usually have a long trip or 2 a year so a Radar Detector works much better than a lawyer or driving back a few thousand miles to fight a ticket.
- Well, better yet, as long as I'm not absurdly over the limit they usually let me go in the U.S. cause I'm from Canada. The last one that got me was when I was approaching a cruiser who had someone pulled over and they were out of the car. Didn't think to check my speed, BUT, the second cruiser behind me caught me. The Radar detector I was running with just kept beeping - that's why I'll get a V1.

2) When there is no traffic, the Radar detector just tells you that you've been hit. By rapidly hitting the brakes, you "may" get away with it but likely not.

3) When there is more traffic, there is always someone speeding so the oncoming LEOs will be taking spot readings. A decent Radar detector should be able to pick these up and again give you some warning.

4) I LOVE It when someone in a cage passes me at a decent speed. I can ride about a 1/4 or so mile back at the same speed and not worry about him as he clears the path for me. The same is true at night with a vehicle in front as they will clear away the critters to some extent.

[gunny]

I have heard stories of some officers who would park their squads and snooze until the threshold was met and the alert tone went off. To me, the thought of sleeping on duty, in a marked car no less, is an invitation for disaster, but not everyone saw it that way.

[NOTE: Return signal from fastest target is not necessarily the highest frequency. Police doppler radar works by comparing the doppler shift between the outbound signal and the return signal and mathematically calculating a speed (deducting for patrol speed as necessary in moving mode). The returned signal frequency may be higher or lower depending on whether target is moving towards or away from the antenna, but the difference between the signals will be the same for a given target speed. Basically, the unit does not care what the frequencies are, just the difference between the two. Images attached.]

Happened upon an officer sound asleep in his patrol vehicle a few years ago. Couldn't resist and called 911, think there is an officer who is either dead or unconcious in his vehicle. Golly, what a stir that caused. I was doing some work close by and all sorts of cops showed up, even some in a helicopter. He woke up when the first car got there. Yes they did call me back on my cell and no, it was not to thank me for my concern. I had pictures.

[MTGMAN]

I have a V1 and strongly recommend it. It has saved my bacon many times. Twice last week on a 1300 mile round trip from Modesto, CA to Boise, ID. Oregon has 55 mph through all of Hwy 95.
The bi-directional radar has gotten me twice. Once in Yosemite NP. I had the V1 on, but I also had my iPod cranking and didn't hear the warning. 45 in a 25. Went a bought the helmet assisted radar detection system (H.A.R.D.) from legal speeding. Now I can be listening to music and looking around enjoying the journey. Yes the HARD system is $160, but cheaper than a ticket.
www.legalspeeding.com
Also purchased Laser Veil from www.laserveil.com
Besides the bi-directional radar, (usually cruising back roads 10 mph over posted limit, I also get "detected" at 5-10 miles outside city limits, county lines, and state lines on a regular basis.
When all else fails try www.helpigotaticket.com it helped me beat 1 ticket 68 mph in a 55 mph (yep, bidirectional CHP radar)